60 Minutes: "An American Dilemma"

VOL. XXVIII, NO. 16, January 14, 1996

ED BRADLEY: Since the end of the cold war and the disappearance of the 
Soviet threat, the United States probably has no more important ally in 
NATO than Turkey. And there is probably no other NATO member facing as 
much turmoil. The Western leaning, Yale educated Prime Minister, Tansu 
Ciller, was unseated in recent elections in which an Islamic party, whose 
leader is anti-Western, got the most votes. On top of that, one American 
Congressman says Turkey, which receives hundreds of millions of dollars 
in U.S. aid, is engaged in genocide. He's talking about the campaign 
against the Kurds, an ethnic minority of mostly farmers and sheep herders 
who have lived with their own language and customs for more than four 
thousand years.

In 1993, when we went to Iraq, just across the border from Turkey, we saw 
evidence of what Saddam Hussein had done to the very same people, the 
Kurds. There were mass graves where people had been shot and buried; 
villages that had been burned, or the people hit with poison gas. After 
the Gulf War, to protect the Kurds, the United States mounted Operation 
Provide Comfort, a military-run effort that polices Northern Iraq, 
providing protection and humanitarian aid at a cost of $130 million a 
year. But next door in Turkey, Kurds are still being tortured and killed; 
persecution that human rights organizations charge the U.S. Government 
actually supports with some of its tax dollars. William Schulz is the 
Executive Director of Amnesty International, U.S.A. 

WILLIAM SCHULZ: This year, Turkey will receive $320 million dollars in 
military loans. That's $320 million dollars of U.S. taxpayer money, which 
is not going for anything here at home, and it's not going to build 
democracy or human rights around the world. It's is going to the Turkish 
Government for the purpose of killing their own citizens.

ED BRADLEY: Those citizens are Turkish Kurds, and they've been caught in 
the crossfire of an eleven-year-old war. There are some 20 million Kurds, 
the largest ethnic group in the world without their own country. They 
live in Iraq, Iran and Syria, but most of them are in Turkey. Since 1984, 
the Turkish military has been fighting this small army of Kurdish 
guerrillas. They have been seeking to establish an independent Kurdish 
nation in southeastern Turkey. During the war, both the guerrillas and 
the Turkish military have been accused of human rights violations against 
civilians. But Republican Congressman John Porter says there's an 
important difference; one side -- the Turkish Government, is the third 
largest recipient of U.S. economic and military aid in the world.

JOHN PORTER: We cannot sit on the sidelines while these kinds of abuses 
are going on, while our ally uses our military equipment to kill and maim 
innocent people in their society. 

ED BRADLEY: But reports persist of brutal repression of Kurdish civilians 
by the U.S.-backed military; reports of torture, murder and the 
destruction of hundreds of Kurdish villages. Here in the southeastern 
part of Turkey, there are an estimated 2500 villages like this one, 
either evacuated or destroyed. People who used to live in them say 
Turkish army soldiers would come to a village and give them a choice; 
they either had to join the Village Guard, which meant they'd had to take 
up arms against Kurdish guerrillas, or they'd be forced out of their 
homes. Most chose not to fight the guerrillas, who are known as the PKK. 
As a result, there are some two-million refugees from this part of 
Turkey. Onur Oyman is the Turkish Deputy Foreign Minister.

ONUR OYMAN: It is our homeland, Turkey. And we are defending our homeland.

ED BRADLEY: Oyman says his government's military operation is a 
legitimate response to the threat posed by the PKK guerrilla insurgency.

ONUR OYMAN: They have killed so many women and children, teachers, 
professors, judges and religious persons. So it is a pure bloody terror 
organization.

ED BRADLEY: But Congressman Porter says regardless of the PKK threat, the 
Turkish Government has gone too far. 

JOHN PORTER: I think what is going against the Kurds in Turkey, 
approaches government terrorism; state terrorism by the Turkish military. 
And while any country has the right to fight terrorism and to prevent 
separatism, the kinds of repressive measures, extra- judicial killings, 
burning of villages, and the like, is -- is -- goes too far, far beyond 
reasonable measures to fight terrorism, and amounts -- amounts to 
genocide against the Kurdish people. 

ED BRADLEY: Few could argue with scenes like this. German television was 
documenting this 1992 Kurdish holiday celebration in Cizre, when 
government troops opened fire. At least four civilians were killed. Yet 
in the face of mounting evidence of military repression of Kurds, the 
Turkish Government categorically denies any wrongdoing.

ONUR OYMAN: Can you believe, for a moment, that a democratic country can 
kill its own women and children? 

ED BRADLEY: It's happened.

ONUR OYMAN: Just -- just -- just to -- to accuse terrorists? It's against 
common sense. It's against our traditions. It's against our way of life. 
And you cannot find such cases throughout our history. We are not 
criminals. We are not barbarians in Turkey. 

ED BRADLEY: But since 1993, there have been more than 4000 official 
complaints of human rights abuses made by Turkish Kurds against the 
Turkish Government. In addition to the outright killings, reports of 
civilians disappearing and systematic torture are widespread. This 
Kurdish doctor says he was detained and tortured by the Turkish military 
because he was suspected of treating PKK guerrillas.

VESI (TRANSLATOR): They seemed to be aiming for my sides and my back. 
They were hitting me very hard in my kidneys. They then asked me to 
undress, and threatened me with a stick, to put the stick inside of me. 
Then I was soaked with cold water from a high pressure hose. They 
squeezed my testicles and from time to time they gave me electric shocks.

ED BRADLEY: In the U.S. State Department's country report on human rights 
in Turkey, it says that commonly employed methods of torture include high 
pressure cold water hoses, electric shocks, beating on the soles of the 
feet, beating of the genitalia, hanging by the arms, blindfolding, sleep 
deprivation, taking away of clothes, systematic beatings and vaginal and 
anal rape with truncheons, and, in some instances, gun barrels. This goes 
on in your country? 

ONUR OYMAN: Well, all these are prohibited in Turkey. And punishable -- 
severely punishable by law. What we hear, what we listen on such reports, 
or other reports, are allegations. So we cannot accept these general 
allegations. And we consider that it's -- it's a pity that -- a friendly 
country can write such reports without proven facts.

ED BRADLEY: That friendly country is the United States, and the report 
was written by the State Department. John Shattuck is the Assistant 
Secretary of State for Human Rights. 

JOHN SHATTUCK: I think the documented cases of human rights issues and 
problems in Turkey are very clear, and I think we have, in the areas of 
freedom of expression, and in the areas of torture, and in areas of 
massive injury to civilians, some very serious problems. 

JOHN PORTER: This is not an effective way to fight terrorist activity. It 
only alienates a very large segment of the population, and causes massive 
human rights abuses. 

ED BRADLEY: So the PKK murders civilians? 

JOHN SHATTUCK: Yes.

ED BRADLEY: And the Turkish Government murders civilians? 

JOHN SHATTUCK: Right.

ED BRADLEY: So, the people are caught in the middle. 

JOHN SHATTUCK: People are caught tragically in the middle of this. 
There's no question about it.

ED BRADLEY: And there is increasing evidence that the U.S.- supplied 
military hardware is contributing to the conflict. U.S.- made equipment 
is everywhere in southeastern Turkey. F-4 fighter jets, M-60 tanks, 
helicopters and armored personnel carriers; all part of the $6.9 billion 
dollars worth of military firepower the U.S. has provided Turkey in the 
last ten years. In this 1992 offensive, the Turkish military used their 
U.S.-made F-4 fighters and Cobra helicopters to bomb Kurdish guerrilla 
strongholds. Abdullah Ocalan is the leader of the PKK guerrilla army. We 
spoke to him at a safe house in the Middle East. 

ABDULLAH OCALAN (TRANSLATOR): It is an absolute reality, that without 
U.S. technology, Turkey could not have prolonged the war against us this 
long.

ED BRADLEY: And have those weapons been used against civilians? 

ABDULLAH OCALAN: This is very obvious. All the villages have been burned 
by the American weapons, on an everyday basis. Today, these weapons, 
F-16's and helicopters, are being sued. 

ED BRADLEY: In fact, the U.S. State Department did acknowledge, for the 
first time in a report last spring, that it is "highly likely" U.S.-made 
equipment has been used in human rights violations against innocent 
Kurdish civilians. But despite that, the administration's policy is to 
continue supporting massive military aid for Turkey. John Kornblum helps 
shape policy as Deputy Assistant Secretary of State.

JOHN KORNBLUM: It -- it can't be overestimated, how central the role of 
Turkey is. Ten years ago, Turkey looked to most people as being at the 
end of the world. All of a sudden, almost overnight, Turkey was put right 
in the center of an area of the world which is changing rapidly, which is 
strategic, economically militarily, and which there is the danger of 
immense and massive conflict. 

ED BRADLEY: The threat of conflict in the region is why Incirlik air base 
in Turkey is now the hub for the U.S. military in this part of the world. 
There are more than 2000 U.S. military personnel, and an arsenal of 
sophisticated weaponry stationed there. Surrounded by several aggressive 
fundamentalist regimes, Turkey is now the new front line of NATO. That's 
why U.S. policy- makers say they have to funnel weapons to the Turkish 
Government, despite its continued mistreatment of the Kurds. 

JOHN KORNBLUM: It has a difficult, lamentable situation in its 
southeastern area, and it is taking measures which we don't support.

ED BRADLEY: Well we provide them with about 80 percent of their military 
equipment. Correct?

JOHN KORNBLUM: Yeah. But their military equipment is based on a much 
different role of Turkey. Their -- their role as a NATO ally, and their 
very important strategic considerations. 

ED BRADLEY: Kornblum says the U.S. routinely pressures Turkish officials 
to clean up their human rights record. But Congressman Porter says the 
results so far are only promises not kept by the Turkish Government.

JOHN PORTER: There is cosmetic progress. But the changes are very, very 
minimal. Every time there's a budget cycle where anyone threatens to cut 
their economic aid, they suddenly say, " well, we're going to change 
things. We're meeting in Parliament, and you'll see some real change 
occurring." And as soon as we get through the cycle, and -- and the aid 
is given, then no real change occurs at all.

ED BRADLEY: It goes back to what is was? 

JOHN PORTER: It goes back to what it was. Repression only. 

ED BRADLEY: Meanwhile, the PKK's Abdullah Ocalan told us that he wants 
peace now. And he is willing to give up on his wish for an independent 
Kurdish state, in exchange for negotiations on Kurdish rights. Have you 
ever approached the Government of Turkey to talk about peaceful negotiations?

ABDULLAH OCALAN: I am calling them every day. I am prepared to sign 
anything that would guarantee some form of democracy. I am prepared to 
accept it now.

ED BRADLEY: So, you don't want to have an independent Kurdistan? 

ABDULLAH OCALAN: No. The main thing is the freedom of the Kurdish people; 
political and cultural freedom for the Kurds. 

ED BRADLEY: Would you consider negotiating a political settlement with 
the PKK?

ONUR OYMAN: Of course not. No governments, no democratic government can 
negotiate with terrorists. 

ED BRADLEY: While the war continues between the Turkish Government and 
the PKK, the U.S. will spend more than $100 million dollars this year on 
Operation Provide Comfort to protect Kurds right next door in Iraq. But 
the U.S. will also provide the Turkish Government hundreds of millions of 
dollars in military and economic aid, as Turkish Kurds and their villages 
continue to disappear. 

WILLIAM SCHULZ: It's strange, isn't it -- It's schizophrenic -- a 
schizophrenic policy. Because one would think that if it was in fact the 
welfare of the Kurds that the U.S. Government had at heart, that the 
policy would be more consistent. Obviously the U.S. policy is -- is 
impacted by the foreign policy considerations and strategic 
considerations with regard to those two countries. 

ED BRADLEY: Policy and strategic considerations, that even the State 
Department knows are of little comfort to Kurds in Turkey. How does the 
destruction of Kurdish villages in Turkey differ from the destruction of 
Kurdish villages across the border in Iraq, by Saddam Hussein?

JEFF KORNBLUM: If you're in the village, there's no difference whatsoever.

ED BRADLEY: During our interviews, the State Department told us it is now 
giving more scrutiny to proposed weapons sales to Turkey, and even 
canceling some. Since then, however, the Clinton Administration announced 
yet another shipment to Turkey -- one hundred and thirty-two million 
dollars worth of sophisticated anti-personnel missiles.